Conducted by Ghost Wings Magazine Editor Adam Makos with Paul Repp at Moody AFB, August 27, 2004:

Paul Repp graduated from the University of Florida with an engineering degree and as a member of the ROTC program. He then reported to Moody Air Force Base for his pilot training as a USAF 2nd Lieutenant.

Adam Makos: What were your aspirations at the time when you came here (to Moody AFB) as an ROTC graduate?
Paul Repp: This was in 1968, Vietnam is kind of at a peak, and all we wanted to do was go over and help win the war. We wanted to go drop bombs and fight the war as best we could. Whatever assignment we could get. Classes were pretty big then . . . (we) started with 55–60 students, the average washout rate was probably 5 - 10 students per class, and we had the old T-41s; Cessnas, high-wing . . . that was about a 6-week program, and then (the class transitioned) into the T-37 and T-38. It was the most demanding and strenuous year of my life, pilot training, at that time, because you had to pass each phase. Every day you had academics either in the morning and then flying in the afternoon, or, you flew in the morning and you had to report at 5:30 in the morning or 6:00 in the morning, and, then, after you flew, you went home and changed clothes and had academics in the afternoon. So you had critical phases that you had to pass in flying and then you had tests, also, in academics, and it all was evaluated quarterly and test results were all posted and you saw your ranking in the class. And as your ranking went, so went your assignment when you graduated.

Adam Makos: The friends you spent most of your time with, was it a small group . . . can you just tell me about the melting pot that must have occurred in the early days of your class?
Paul Repp: Yeah, it sort of turned into a bachelor group and a married group. The married group lived across the street in base housing and we lived back over here in old base quarters that were built in World War II and right by the swimming pool and then the officer’s club was just 100 yards away. And you really got a bond with classmates because you worked together, you sweated together, we exercised together, and a big part was exercising. Big on PT, physical training, and at that time, each class would compete against the other classes in sports, sporting events, softball, basketball, handball, various other sports, and then there was an award at the end of the year (for) who had the most victories. Fortunately, we had a group, we had two guys that were 6'3" and 6'4" in our class, so we beat the Academy classes in basketball, softball, and George was very athletic and so was I, so we built a close bond together and, since we were both bachelors, we lived very close to each other.

Adam Makos: Could you tell us briefly about some of the instructors you had?
Any memorable instructors in the early days, the T-37 days?
Paul Repp: Yeah, the T-37 days, Bob Seidel, who is here today, was my IP (Instructor Pilot) and it’s an incredible relationship we developed with the instructors. Bob, who had just come back from Vietnam, had all the memories and would relate the stories of being over in Vietnam and that’s what we were all about . . . we were about becoming an officer and becoming the best pilot we could be.

Adam Makos: Can you share with us some memories about then-Lt. George W. Bush; about his character, what kind of person he was?
Paul Repp: George, who at the time--we had no idea who his dad was--he was very unpretentious, very intelligent, very athletic, very astute, very aware, and you knew when he said something that it was the truth and he would stand behind it. And it continued through his whole life. He is not one who goes back on his word. He doesn’t have to correct something that he said because it’s not the truth.

Adam Makos: The President has been criticized because he stopped flying the F-102 interceptor and took early leave from the Texas Air National Guard. What are your thoughts on that?
Paul Repp: There was an interview I did with the Atlanta Journal-Constitution reporter . . . he couldn’t understand why he (Bush) got out of the ‘102 Squadron and didn’t fly for a year. And I related to him . . . at that particular time in 1972 and 1973, the F-102s were being phased out. We had F-106 pilots coming back from Vietnam . . . they were current in the airplane and the F-102 was being replaced by the F-106. So, most of the Guard units and Reserve units that were flying ‘102s, they were in the transition phase and there wasn’t much work to be done (Bush’s unit transitioned from an F-102 interceptor squadron to an F-101 training squadron). And in ’72, the war was starting to wind down, there were budget crises, and we were having the same thing here, in pilot training (after training, Repp returned to Moody as an instructor.) You didn’t have enough fuel to fly the rest of the month so you didn’t fly, you’d sit down for days or weeks. And this is what transpired at that particular time. He (Bush) was not running away from anything, it was just a circumstance and what was happening at the time. . . As a matter of fact I was supposed to stay in the service ‘till ’74. I got an “early out” in January of ’73, so I didn’t fly all my commitment. Am I an enemy, or a failure, or a quitter? I don’t think so. I fulfilled my commitment and the military didn’t need me anymore. And they were offering people “early outs” because it would cut the budget.

Adam Makos: The President’s opponents have criticized him for not taking his flight physical even after he decided to stop flying. There’s really no such thing as a truly “mandatory” flight physical, right?
Paul Repp: If you were going to fly, you needed to take a physical. He wasn’t going to fly so there was no need to take a physical.

Adam Makos: Can you explain the difference between the Air National Guard and the Air Force?
Paul Repp: There’s active duty Air Force, there’s Air Force Reserve, and then there’s Air Force National Guard. The Air Force National Guard falls under the auspices of each state and the Governor is in charge and controls the National Guard. Obviously, the state puts in a lot of funds and then the federal government actually subsidizes a lot to the National Guard. And it’s just a matter of choice, which way you wanted to go.

Adam Makos: You were active duty USAF, right?
Paul Repp: I was a ROTC graduate, but upon my commission, I was active duty.

Adam Makos: Most people think that President Bush was solely a National Guardsman, weekend warrior. They don’t know that during his Moody Air Force experience, he was a Guardsman on active duty with the regular Air Force. Can you comment on that?
Paul Repp: Sure, we had two Marines in our class, George, I think, was the only Guard, and I think the rest of us were OCS officer-candidate school candidates and ROTC graduates. Of course, everyone had to have a college degree to be an officer in the Air Force. And, you didn’t know who was who, or what was what. Everybody had different training, we were all considered and were assumed to be active duty Air Force for that entire year, which we were.

Adam Makos: Do you ever remember any particular flights when you flew Bush’s wing, or any memories about his skill as an aviator?
Paul Repp: Oh, yeah, we flew formation together, we flew across country together, not in the same airplane obviously; we always had instructors or else we were both solo students flying together, and he was as good as everybody else in the class; a top-notch athlete and when you’re a good athlete, you’re generally a very good pilot, which he was. Very astute, very quick-minded; could relate to what’s happening now and could think far enough ahead to anticipate what was going to happen.

Adam Makos: When you reached the fullness of your capabilities here at Moody, in the T-38, what level of proficiency did you and Lt. George Bush have? What were your capabilities as fighter pilots?
Paul Repp: Actually, as fighter pilots, our capabilities weren’t much . . . we did do a lot of solo missions and we flew a lot formation, a lot of instrumentation, and, as a matter of fact, I walked out of here, went to survival school, and then went to instructor pilot school that was only 6 weeks, and I came back and I was sitting in the back seat, instructing a student. So we were qualified, but you still had to build your confidence and knowledge and you were continually studying and working hard to improve your flying.

Adam Makos: How about the Vietnam War? The thought of the Vietnam War must have been on your minds quite a bit in ’68 and ’69?
Paul Repp: Oh, absolutely, oh, yes. Because probably 67% of our assignments were in airplanes that first you would go get qualified and checked out in the airplane, and once you were checked out, then you would be heading to Vietnam for at least a year or 100 missions, whichever came first. And George’s unit, there were some ADC, which is Air Defense Command, which he fell under, Guard units, that were sent over to Vietnam to fly. His unit did not get chosen. But there was the anticipation that everyone would go to Vietnam sooner or later.

Adam Makos: In his Newsweek article, Jonathan Alter said “Bush thought that by enlisting in the National Guard he could get the best of both worlds—credit for service and the freedom to do what he wanted to at home. He could be a hawk without having to face the risk of being killed.” So, this thing about no risk …
Paul Repp: No risk? If you’ve read the interview I did for the Atlanta Journal, the F-102, probably the F-101 was the most dangerous airplane to fly, and the F-102 was the second most dangerous airplane. It was an accident waiting to happen. And, as I mentioned in the interview, it was not for the weak of heart to fly the ‘102. It’s a single-seat, single-engine airplane with a huge delta wing that could stall in a heartbeat. You had lots of mechanical problems with that airplane, and there are many pilots who jumped out, and there are some pilots that never survived. So, to say that he (Bush) tried to abuse or get around being in dangerous areas or airplanes is entirely false.

Adam Makos: When Bush enlisted, some of his squadronmates were flying the F-102 in combat in Vietnam, so, is it fair to say he was aware of that?
Paul Repp: Oh, obviously, we talked about it, and he thought there was a chance that he would get sent over. Number one, George, being as athletic as he is, wanted to fly airplanes. And, I would assume that with his father being a pilot, he wanted try his hand at it, and he did, and he was very good*. We wanted to be in active duty, we wanted to be in combat. That’s the only way you could prove to yourself that all this training and all this work that you put yourself through was worthwhile and you are the best that you could be.
*(George W. Bush’s father, George H.W. Bush was one of the youngest naval aviators of World War II).

Adam Makos: Frank Twait had said in an article I read, that upon graduation he (Bush) went to say goodbye to Frank and he said ‘I just hope I can be like my Dad. He’s the man I respect the most.’ That was basically the statement that stuck in Frank’s head.
Paul Repp: That’s absolutely true. George and I talked about it frequently during pilot training.

Adam Makos: How about yourself, after you graduated from Moody, can you tell us a little bit about the rest of your career? Your next assignment?
Paul Repp: Your next assignment had to do entirely with (1) class ranking and then (2) what airplanes were available at the time. And, of course, everybody wanted to fly airplanes and go drop bombs. When our class graduated in November 1969, it (Vietnam) was starting to wind down a little bit and there weren’t quite as many fighter slots available at that particular time. So, I chose to come back as an instructor in the T-38 because I really like the T-38; supersonic, great flying, good formation flying, and we flew a lot of hours and that’s what I wanted. I really wanted to increase my skills as a pilot.

Adam Makos: As for then-Lt. Bush, is it fair to say that he graduated to fight on a different war front, that of the Cold War?
Paul Repp: Oh, absolutely. And actually, not everyone did go to Vietnam. I think there were a few that ended up going over to Germany to fill some slots in flying, and then some of us stayed stateside. But, that’s correct, there were two fronts going, the Cold War with Russia was not at all warm, and it was, right behind Vietnam, it was number two, if not at times number one, in the thought process with the military. And we were always training in the fighter squadrons to fight against MiGs, because that was our competition and that was our enemy.

Adam Makos: The President’s National Guard service, his military service, it is constantly being degraded because he did not serve overseas. As his friend, knowing what he has gone through, how does that resonate with you?
Paul Repp: It shows the ignorance out here and it’s mostly political and it’s people that really aren’t aware of what happened at the time. You have newsmen, you have newspaper people, and you have politicians who weren’t around in ’63 and ’68, ’69, ’70, and ’72, or if they were around, weren’t involved and don’t remember exactly what was going on.

Adam Makos: As for staying in touch with Bush after your training at Moody, I know Lockhart had mentioned that he would drive through Texas and stop by and say ‘hello.’ Can you just explain how you stayed in touch and some of your interactions with Bush in the post-Moody days?
Paul Repp: Sure. When I returned here to Moody as an instructor, George was in Houston and part of our training was navigation training and we would do “out-and-backs” where we would fly to a city, then turn around and come back. We would do an overnight, and I did quite a few overnights taking students into Houston, Hobby Airport, and I would spend the night with George and he would take me out on the flight line in the afternoon and I’d see what active duty pilots were doing as far as ADC (Air Defense Command) since I was in the Air Training Command and it was completely different. And it was an education for me. And, then, subsequent to that, when I got out of the service in ’73, I went with Delta Airlines and worked with Delta down in Miami for the first 15 years and then the remainder of my career I was in Atlanta, and we would talk to each other a couple of times a year about our careers and what we were doing and what was happening and we just stayed up with each other.

Adam Makos: Not many people have a picture of Texas Air National Guard, in Houston, and what Bush’s role was at the time. When you would visit there, and come away impressed, can you just describe where he was living, working, and the state of the union at that time?
Paul Repp: Sure, he was living in a townhouse at the time, where I’d stay, and we’d go down to the ready room and he’d show me the flight line and flight suits and G suits and explain their mission, what the mission involved, and how long the flights were, and the duration of the flights and the training that he had to maintain to keep his currency, because flying the ‘102 is not an easy thing to do. You can’t just do it once a month and be qualified and current.

Adam Makos: In the new John D. Shaw painting, Training Command the caption reprints a compliment that the President gave Tom Lockhart when he stated that Lockhart taught him, “To fly, to be prepared, to dare.” Does that kind of sum up what happened at Moody for the future President?
Paul Repp: Oh, absolutely, that happened for every one of us. Not just our class of 55, I mean, there were, oh, my goodness, over a 5–6-year period, between the Navy, Air Force, and Marines, there were 5 to 10 thousand pilots who were being trained, and we all had to go through the same tough, rigorous training. The military of the United States trains the best pilots in the world, absolutely. And in my career with Delta Airlines, we hired primarily military pilots because we knew they had the best training and we were getting the best-qualified pilots.

Adam Makos: So in your training, learning “to fly” was only one part of the equation?
Paul Repp: In an airplane, doing once or twice the speed of sound, your reaction time is very limited. You have to have a working knowledge of the airplane, you have to have a working knowledge of your own capabilities, and you have to be ready for whatever is going to happen, and the unknown is going to happen.

Adam Makos: Along the lines of learning “to dare,” what were your thoughts when you learned that the President had flown into Baghdad on Thanksgiving Day to have dinner with the troops?
Paul Repp: I can relate very closely to it and it sounds like typical George, because he is there for someone else all the time. ‘It’s not about me, it’s about the other person,’ and he knew that these people were over there, giving their lives for us, and why shouldn’t you go over there and show your support? Fortunately, with Delta Airlines, for the last year, I was flying troops in and out of Kuwait and I know exactly what was going through his mind. I would stand at the stairwell and I would personally greet each troop getting on the airplane, I would greet each one leaving the airplane and I told them we would come back to get them. And I thanked them all for their service to the United States.

Adam Makos: How do you rate this small “reunion” at your old training base?
Paul Repp: Well, it’s been a very moving experience for me coming back to Moody, and, George; we had talked a while back about the opportunity and he would love to come back to see the base because he remembers it very well, very distinctly. With names, if somebody walks into a room that he hasn’t seen in 30 years, he’ll call them by name. It brings back many fond memories because we had camaraderie, all of us working together for the same goal to be the best pilot we could be, and to defend our country.

Adam Makos: I’ve heard that the President counts his flight training days among the best days in his life. What is it about that short period that is so significant in how it impacts someone’s life?
Paul Repp: It’s a year of your life that cannot be relived again or reenacted. We were all taken off the street--college graduates--and brought here to Moody or to Lackland or to Loveland or whatever base you were chosen to go to, or in the Navy or in the Marines. As I mentioned before, we did have a couple of Marine pilots in our group. We were all equal, we all had the same goal, it was the most strenuous year of your life, the most exhilarating year of your life, there were ups and downs, you’d learn to control emotions, you learned what your capabilities are as an individual. It was just a phenomenal year and walking back into Moody just brings back all the fond memories.

Adam Makos: Can you tell me about your job today and your involvements outside of work?
Paul Repp: I put in 30 years with Delta Airlines and I’ve just recently retired. I instructed many years and worked in the training department; helped write programs, and now that I’m retired I’m going to go back as a retired instructor with Delta Airlines in the simulators. I like to travel, my wife and I play golf, we’re very active in the community and the church.

Interview copyright Adam P. Makos (c) 2004, all rights reserved, please inquire for permission to reprint